Living With Facial Pain

Is this Really a diagnosis?

Hi Everyone,

My name is Maddy. I am sorry this is long and maybe we
I am a 35 y/o female. I was officially diagnosed when I was 24, but had symptoms way before that, and a prior migraine diagnosis at 15 y/o. I suppose I have idopathic Bilateral TN but the more I read the more I believe that this has something to do with my cleft lip and palate (not the entire palate just the hard). As time went on more diagnosis have been added occipital neuralgia, TMJ, complex regional pain syndrome, and now glasopharyngeal neuralgia.

Is it truly possible to have all these problems at the same time? Is it really something that can happen. I am so tired and feel so helpless. It is hard to hear that no one can help you. “There is nothing we can do. Sorry.” Is that really how it works?

I mean I am sad but its about other things that I have gone through recently that have nothing to do with the pain. I am sad that facial pain is robbing me of the possibility to have children, loosing my independence, and missing out on every chance I get to go back to school. Basically missing out on life!

Everyone says you need to take care of yourself but at the same time what about the things I want to pursue in my life. It is scary to loose work and get fired. It hurts because no one understands how hard this can all be. As far as my current course of trearment it is too long to go over here but if anyone thinks they can help let me know.

Sorry for the long post I find it hard to summarize 11 years of insanity.

Thanks Everyone!!!

Hi Marilia
Hope this helps,

I have had a long run getting diagnosed as well and have migraine issues bilateral type 1 TN and now occipital TN

I feel there must be an underlining issue that is driving all of these issues.

Unfortunately for me i get very bad migraine from second hand cigarette smoke as well as msg.

One thing i am trying is botox treatments for the migraines and when i can afford it prfn ( pulsed radio frequency radio neuropathy) and this helps the tn 1 for 3 months.

Plus i have the usual huge amount of drugs.

I would have liked to think that the professionals do look at all the issues as a whole but the rarely do.

To Add, i have had issue work wise, not taking promotions and getting retrenched last year makes it hard, now im in a job that is has restrictions is medications etc due to the type of work we now do.

Keeping working for me is very important for piece of mind and keeping financial obviously. Having 3 month off recently i found i had too much time and was focusing on the pain and it made it much worse. This is my experience and not a reflection on anyone else as we all deal with this crap as we can.


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Hey Marilina,
Firstly, stop apologising. Did you choose to be in this predicament? I doubt it. We should only ever be apologising for those things under our control and by the sounds of it none of this is under your control.

It is not unusual for those of us with an ‘idiopathic’ type diagnosis to have multiple and often conflicting diagnosis. For example I have a brain condition which has been operated on multiple times, each surgery has been to ‘fix’ it. The ‘fix’ has not fixed and with each differing dr or specialist I’ve seen I’ve been given yet another ‘diagnosis’. I’m up to 9 differing diagnosis. One of which has been labelled as TN, another being idiopathic, which is a little odd when you consider that there is a known cause, so in my opinion, rather than a dr say ‘We don’t know’ they say it’s ‘idiopathic’ and put it all back on me. I eventually got to a point where I found the dr’s didn’t have the answers, so seeing them was only going over and over and ov… the same things. I had to learn to manage it all for myself.

You state “…Everyone says you need to take care of yourself…” and I’m sorry to say this, but it’s true. We all have plans but if we do not look after ourselves and just push on through eventually it can all come to a head. I say this because I tried to ignore and push on, only in the process I did myself more harm than good, resulting in further surgery. So don’t do that.

Trying to get others to understand is impossible unless they have been there. I have had people try to be empathetic in understanding, they think a bad headache is a niggle in the temple. Hell, give me a niggle any day over this. We can only draw on our own experiences, if a niggle is as bad as someone’s pain is then they truly have no idea, no experience in managing chronic pain. Trying to educate them is impossible. We have to look after ourselves because we are the only ones who can grasp this reality.

None of us have exactly the same pain or feel it in exactly the same way, so we have to learn what works (and what doesn’t) for ourselves individually. What can be the miracle cure for one individual maybe of no benefit too another. So trying to draw straight line parallels between differing patients is silly and yet that is exactly what the dr’s try to do. Patient ‘A’ has symptom ‘B’ and is treated with remedy ‘C’, but I’m not ‘A’ my symptom is not ‘B’ so ‘C’ ain’t much use at all. On a bad day I can be the whole damn alphabet and the dr’s have no alphabet left. So now what??? I have to manage the best way I can for ME. Not the dr’s, not the damn alphabet but for me. I found, for me, I need to utilise many tools to manage. It’s not a case of using the same management tools each time. Sometimes hydrotherapy is of benefit, sometimes medication can help and sometimes a dark quiet room is needed. But those are some of my tools that work for me and yours maybe different. It really can be a case of elimination to establish what works best for you and what doesn’t.

WOW, I just went back and read through all of that, bit long winded. Now I’m the one who needs to be apologising :wink: Just know that you are not alone in all of this, we know because we live it too. So come talk to us.

Merl from the Moderator Support Team


Hi Simon,

Thank you for replying!! I wish I could go to work! I have tried so many times its insane! I will list all the craziness because it can only really benefit all of us. What is PRFN? Before I finally has the MVD’s I was a chemistry student only female in my class but on the trying out meds, you know the yo- yo try this and this go to therapy it psychological. At the same time I was working towards a nursing degree as well and got accepted in to a nursing program I was going to enter a month after graduation. Oh yea I also majored in Biology and minors in math and sociology. I worked in a research lab and it was insane. Idk I worked and studied like crazy, I did not partake in the crazy college experience.

Of course I regret this now as it was my chance to get out and still try to be me while the pain was going up and down. I also remember how hard it was, how I had to call out and ask for special privileges. It sucked really, oh and my lidoderm mask, and towards the end the dangerous situations I put myself in. On a NYC subway platform throwing up and dizzy from meds whatever.

Anyhow It sucked but I wish I had that again. I was able to do yoga for a few months this year. Unfortunately my fiancee passed away in February so I have been dealing with that. Either way I think I wasn’t really taking care of myself enough last year and so now that I am it is a little overwhelming.

Well I am a Wind- Bag lol so back to the treatment. Its extensive but you guys know how it is.

Maintenance Medication

Baclofen (20mg tab) 40mg …..................................... 2/ Day (am/ pm)- Spasticity  

Oxcarbazepine (150 mg tab) 450mg …...................... 3/ Day (am/noon/pm)- TN Pain 

Belbuca (Buprenorphine HCl) 600 mcg Buccal Patch  2/ Day (am/ pm) - TN/ Head Pain 

 Verapamil ER 240mg Tab …....................................... 1/ Day (pm)- Migraine 

Naltrexone 6mg Tab …............................................... 1/ Day (pm) - Pain Compounded  

Lidocaine 15%/ Ketamine 15% Cream 1oz …............. 2/ Day (am/pm)- TN/ Head Pain Compounded 

Lidocaine Viscous 2% Solution …............................... 1/ Day – Desensitize Mouth for Brushing TN Mouth Pain 

Denta 5000 Plus Sodium Fluoride …........................... 1/ Day – Reduce amt of Brushing TN Mouth Pain 

Breakthrough Pain/ Migraine Medication (Emergency Meds)

Zomig Nasal Spray 5mg – use one for migraine  

Naratriptan 2.5 mg – If zomig does not completely resolve migraine take one 

Odanestron ODT- For nausea caused by migraine or from extreme TN Pain 

Ketorolac 10mg – For extreme pain from TN Pain, and Migraine when Zomig does not completely resolve migraine 

Cyclobenaprine 10mg- For muscle spasticity caused by TN, from CRPS, or TMJ  

If all above medications fail to control either take 6 methylprednisolone tablets if prescribed by Pain Management, and Acetaminophen 1000mg (Call Pain Management 1st) 

If medications not advised must go to ER at NYP- Cornell 


Botox injections of masseter, temporalis- Every 3 months for CRPS and TMJ 

Steroid injections of masseter, temporalis- Every month and a half after botox injections for CRPS and TMJ 

Botox injections of the eye muscles bilateral- Every 3 months for Facial Spasm 

Nerve Block- Steroid Injection of facial nerves V1, V2, V3  

Nerve Block- Steroid Injection of Glossopharyngeal Nerve (Throat) 


Neurostimulators- 4 Batteries installed in Lower abdomen. Rechargeable, and controlled via 4 separate remote controls 

Left Face Neurostimulator – Leads on left facial nerve branch V1, V2 

Right Face Neurostimulator– Leads on right facial nerve branch V1, V2 

Mandibular Neurostimulator- Leads on left and right facial nerve branch V3 

Occipital Neurostimulator – Leads on occipital nerve left and right

Hi Simon. I try to stay in the workforce too because it does give me a reason to get up, go out and face daily life. It is not always easy and I do only work a fraction, but I need that purpose. Lately though I am getting a bad flare about once in 6 weeks but it incapacitate me for at least a week before I can face light again. I am considering early retirement but are putting it off as long as possible. Riana

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Hi Merl!!

Thank you for your reply. Well as you can see from my other reply I have quite the regimen. I feel that If I would have done both MVD’s earlier I would have been better off. I was told that I needed them when I was first diagnosed in 2008, I didn’t do it until 2012, I had both than.

I Know I do try but it is so hard to do. Since May- July I was having 25 headache/ face pain. I mean extreme migraines, which in turn trigger horrendous pain. I lost hearing from another idiopathic problem and my right ear lost hearing higher and lower frequencies. So yeah another BIG IDK from neurologist.

Its just lonely to go through this. I went to Pain Therapy, twice. Idk where they get off, but telling me to “pick myself up from my bootstraps” or telling me to stop looking for answers I already have a diagnosis is ridiculous. I can I just accept what is happening? I have always fought for my right to anything. I have always been super proactive and vocal about causes. Oh yea I was on newspaper staffs as a kid, and NYPIRG helping social causes, and even now I try to help the people around me with all the knowledge I have amassed through this TN journey, and before cleft lip stuff for what is called bullying today. I am so glad I m not a teenager now I graduated HS in 2002, cell phones existed but not smart phones google, facebook. Phew

It just really sucks that I can’t go out to a movie or have the cancel on like the few friends I have all the time. I can’t go out, I can’t have kids. Neurologist says I would have to come off all my drugs and the most I would be able to take is Tylenol. I guess that doesn’t matter anymore, the only person I would have considered had passed.

I was doing yoga until well I started getting extreme facial pain. I mean I can trigger a TN attack just by bending over right now. How crazy is that!

Thank you for offering me the opportunity to vent. I mean It is so hard to explain or to get any support if they don’t understand or if they have never been in pain like this. I so too do wish just to be able to take a Tylenol or the over the counter headache medication.

I kind of dread doctor’s appointments I am so tired of there is nothing else we can do. Someone thinks that I am abusing drugs!! Idk I lost it, I called my pain doctor and he knows I am not abusing drugs at all. I mean I can’t take narcotics anyhow I get all crazy and weird Like bad weird. I have to take two benedryl in order to tolerate it. Pain management called me back and said that they know I am compliant and that I do not abuse any of my meds.

If anything I challenge them on every one of the changes. They don’t have to go through the pain not do they have to feel horrible from coming off trileptal or the side effects. Nor do they feel the injections nor do they have to feel crazy with winking eyes that don’t listen to me. I don’t want them to be closed. I sometimes try to pretend I am closing them on my own. Than I get super crazy when I can’t open them. So I know its real.

The throat this is the worst! I can’t swallow or talk. I have to blend my food, and everything is at room temperature. I didn’t think it could get so bad.

Thank you for reaching replying. I promise I won’t apologize. I feel I am always apologizing to everyone for being late or not being able to attend functions.

Merl thank you. I will try to use the website more often I am trying, and you are super right. No one can understand what this is like especially people who have told me that I am playing it up or whatever ignorance they spew. I wish they were more aware, I wish I could help make people more aware I try but they just counteract with stupidity.

I have written way to much, but its nice to get it out of my head and just among people who understand.


Hi Maddy
I wish you did not have to go through all of this!! Condolences to the loss of your fiancé earlier this year. That already puts you in emotional turmoil and adds stress, which the pain feeds off! I lost both my parents within 6 weeks of each other this year, they were living with me and it is so hard explaining the loss I felt. Since then the flares have become more frequent and stays longer. The fatigue becomes overwhelming at times. I did go to the gym but my energy levels are very low and I think that could be the case with you and yoga. Did you go for grief councelling? I also hate suggesting this with all the medication you already need to take, but are you using an anti-depressant?
Please continue your studies. Do it for yourself.
Sending you a big hug! Riana

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Hi Riana,

I wish I could just be in the workforce!! I have pain almost every day. We are looking at already replacing a battery. Of course I haven’t found the meat zipper they installed in my body cause now they are saying these neurostims In my abdomen are not longer rechargeable. DAMN PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY. The company who originally manufactured them got bought by Abbott they no longer make rechargeable batteries, so they are telling me that I would have to get the battery changed every 3 years!!!

I wish I could retire I haven’t even started. I can’t look at a computer screen much less a smart phone. Sometimes I can’t talk period. I read I write I don’t think about the pain all the time. I am too focused on the grief. I think the pain is even interrupting that process. Who wants to think about a migraine or wake up at 5 am with incredible uncontrollable pain?

Give thanks for the ability to be in the workforce. I feel like a waste. Although I give thanks that I did study chem and biochem, I understand doctor speak and come in with research papers all the time to defend myself from some crazy new therapy.

Thanks for reading my post. I appreciate any help I can get!!!

  • Maddy

Oh Maddy. I am so sorry. I do know that I still have much to be thankful for and I appreciate what I have. Hearing what you have to go through saddens me and I so wish I could help in any way possible. I am thinking of you and pray your quality of living with the pain takes a turn for the better! Riana

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Hi Riana,

Thank you for the condolences. It has been incredibly hard. He passed in February. I started yoga for the first time in April through June. It was amazing until the headaches started.

Coincidently summer started at the same time. I am not the same person I was before I went to school. I cannot finish science classes not read nor even study the way I used to.

The meds make me fall asleep and really thinking is soooooo much slower. It is sad to be able to read a chapter of a book and be able to skim, and take an exam, to now where just reading a page is a big deal.

I applied for disability studies. I want to advocate for people with neurological pain. If I can’t start the program , just one class online. I am not even trying to get crazy the way I used to with a full course load.

I don’t want to be ignorant nor not be able to fend for myself. I mean The state doctors want me to have a home health aide now. It feel s horrible to be so dependent after being so super independent.

I am willing to file papers but even a short stint at that was a disaster. Having medicare has helped immensely to access to medicine and doctors but still. I just want to go to the beach smile normally, not have crazy eyes that close when they want, learn to drive, take myself on the subway. Ugh the list goes on.

I am taking a anti-depressant, but this sadness is super real. I mean if I am not sad now when will I be? I am trying to get through it, I mean that’s another sad story. I was his caretaker than I was told to leave and had to ask permission to go to his funeral. He didn’t want it this way. I just didn’t think his mother would stoop so low. I know how people are though. I didn’t deserve it.

Again I wish I could This is the second time I have applied for school and have had to postpone.

I started painting and just being more creative and leave the analytical side behind but it is never a bad thing to be super science oriented too :slight_smile:

Thank You Riana!!


I do pottery and it is such a relaxing activity my whole body relaxes. I hope you get loads of enjoyment out of your art.
Please stay in touch and let me and the others know how you are doing.
Remember, we can only be who we are and we are not responsible for how others treat us. Karma!
Stay positive my young friend. Riana

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Thank you!!

I took a pottery class with Henry. It was great but space in the city is so super expensive. To learn a few months is the equivalent of tuition in 2012. That is crazy, but that NYC. I am also on a waiting list to get a plot at the community garden. 10 year wait list but I figure I have plenty of time to wait.

Thank you Riana!

  • Marilina

The PRFN is pulsed radio frequency nuropothy .
Like a nerve block but less invasive

I have had this procedure many times and it takes the TN pain from 9 to a 4 and to be real the 4 is so mild it is not noticeable if i can ignore it.

I do it under a very light general anaesthetic

It takes a couple of days to get back to 100% and a few weeks later the pain reduces

Here in brisbane Australia it is a minimal cost when you have private health cover. ( with tn its almost a requirement to have some level of health cover here imo anyway)

I missed out on kids as well and that is probably the biggest kick in the arse from TN i have had,

Its a long story but nearing 50 now ( although to tell the truth i feel like im 30, funny how that goes)
My partner has a son so i still get the experience

I am finding now more than ever that the medications are making life harder, harder at work and harder at home to get enthusiastic about just about anything and everything.

Its a bugger that its the meds and the aide effects rather than the tn that causes so much “shittyness”

Sorry for the ramble.

Hello Maddy,

Girl, you have been through it. God bless you. I am so sorry about the passing of your fiancé, that has to be causing high facial pain from the grieving process.

You are not alone, there many people that are going through similar experiences as you. I am one of them. I have TN2 which was caused by a botch job a dentist did in pulling out a molar.

I was in so much pain after the tooth extraction and then went on a doctor hunt to get a diagnosis. Nobody could figure it out. On New Year’s Eve I took a bottle of Ibuprofen to end my life and for heaven’s sake I lived. The doctors at St. Luke’s hospital in Houston could not believe it and neither did I. I was in the hospital for 7 weeks, it was a nightmare. Then I got out and got an appointment with Dr. Dong Kim, Neurosurgeon at Mischer Institute. It took six weeks to get in front of him. The protocol at Mischer is to start off with Gamma Knife. I had two back to back in a six month period. They did not do any good. Then I had the MVD surgery. It went well. It helped with part of my pain, mostly in my inner ear for which I was grateful. Then went to pain management doctor and have been on all sorts of medications to combat flare ups. It is ever changing and that is what makes this so challenging for us all. My facial pain is coming back, the MVD’s only last anywhere between 5 and 10 years. For me it has been six years since I had the surgery.

I just went to see my pain management doctor today, she is going to give me a ganglion nerve block in three weeks. She also prescribes a medication called Nucenta. This is a powerful med and you have to be at home when you take it, or at least it effects me to make sure I am not driving or out and about at work. But is helps cut that real bad pain and gets me through to the next day. I only take it when I have to. Otherwise I take Lyrica 300 mg. three times a day. It is not working well anymore.

Listen, please don’t give up. You need to push yourself to get a job. It will help you have a purpose in your daily life. I know you hurt bad, pain can be a 10 but you need to work. Get a simple job, cashier at drug store, anything. You need to be around people too.

Don’t give up and don’t do anything stupid like I did.

I will keep you in my prayers.

KJH from Houston

Hi Maddy,
So very sorry for your suffering. I too have migraines an TN for 15 years. The migraines since I was a kid. Emgality has worked wonders for me!!! I only works on the migraines but that’s part of the problem, no? Ability causes constipation so start on Emgality. Hopefully it will work for you. Also, where do you live? Go to a pain dr in a dental school, they will understand how to treat you better. It’s hard to believe univ of Illinois only has has ONE at the school. They will know better than a neurologist with your case, due to the defects.
Not every dental school has this sub speciality. Tufts has a big department, FYI.
Best of luck

Hello all, I am going to throw this out there, it is my own belief about my condition… Migraine and persistent facial pain. I am retired now, I can’t imagine having to support yourself with this type of chronic pain and other symptoms.

I have had migraine for 53 years, it was hormonal and then turned daily and intractable 13 years ago. Facial pain around eye,
along jaw and temple started 6 years ago, also daily. Then I was dx with painful bladder syndrome and told it was from 'nerves". Luckily, that pain seems to have gone away.
With the migraine and facial pain came brain fog at night, anxiety which I never had before, one episode of amnesia, one bad episode of vertigo… and the usual migraine symptoms. Some are doozies like the amnesia, loss of vision, panic out of nowhere, aphasia, allodynia (skin hurts).

I’ ve have 45 years of extensive dental work on every tooth, MRI shows nothing except arthritis
of the jaws.

I’ve had severe reactions to almost every med I was given, with only a few exceptions. I won’t take anti epileptics, gaba, dopamine, muscle relaxers, steroids, triptans, ergot. Opiods do help but they are no longer prescribed in the metro area where I live.
For me the bottom line is that the one fact we all
may have in common is the brain and how it is malfunctioning for reasons still unknown.
Central sensitization, crps, migraine, autoimmine, phantom limb all originate in the brain. The brain turns the pain volume up, not down. The brain continues to respond to injuries that have healed. Normal light, sound, smell, touch signals are turned into pain signals by the brain. And a whole cascade of other neurological malfunctions occur and don’t stop until medications successfully intervene, or the brain figures out how to regain normalcy. So I dont seek any more diagnoses or look for somatic causes…I accept that the root cause is a disorder of the brain and neurological system.
I get Botox in the migraine pattern plus extra injections in face every 12 weeks, it completely took away the brain fog and anxiety; and the chronic pain it’s about 50% better. I plan to get counseling because it’s hard enough getting old and I know pain has disrupted most areas of my life. I would rather cope with pain than meds that make me a zombie, my choice.
One thing I heard was the following advice: don’t make your pain your enemy. Not always easy, but I try.

Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for responding to my post. I thank you all for the condolences.

Well As a nice update the sever as hell migraines have passed, so no more ER trips. Unfortunatly as always occipital and facial pain are a little harder to control. This is face pain flare up season usually so I know the pattern.

As far as the emotional pain making the facial pain worse, I think it makes the migraines worse. Well cause crying hurts and I don’t really cry, because of my mantra. Lately I have been sensitive and the pain makes me cry and than makes it worse. Maybe there is a link. I just don’t understand why it would start in May end in July though. I have felt worse recently, and have sought counseling.

As far as work and pushing myself. I appreciate the rooting but it is hard to be in a cashier position and talk to people all day without having horrible jaw and temple ache which than starts a sharp ache in my forehead and my face starts twitching all over. I have also been fired from my last three jobs because I cannot keep a schedule. Again I have doctors appointment at least once a week. The pain is ridiculous so having brain fog is a norm and jobs don’t like for people to take longer. I just want a job that is flexible, not a gig a job. Also cause of recent hearing loss I fall so I have to wait for that. After meds I fall asleep I don’t want to fall asleep but I do. I feel as if I am defending myself here. The way I do with most people. I don’t know if you see the list of medicaitons. I am happy for those who can manage all of those meds, injections, and procedures, and have a job. I salute you, but I am not that wonderful. I thought you guys would understand this.

After injections which are pretty frequent, I need at least 4 days to recover. I have taken all kinds of meds Nucynta, lyrica, amtryptaline, all kinds of narcotics at the beginning. I mean if I didn’t become an addict in 2008-2009 it isn’t happening.

Pain just the facial is turned on by air conditioner, water, rain (yes rain), makeup, sirens and the lights. I live in Manhattan so its loud and bright. A trip to times square is murder. Movies are really difficult. It also triggers nausea, like get a bag ready or take meds. That also triggers more pain. Jesus bending over to tie my shoes or just stretch is a mess.

I blend a lot of my food or have soft foods. I don’t know about you guys but I hate blended dinner. If it were sweet it would be awesome but its just dinner.

I have been to the dental school for help. All I got from them was 20 trigger point injections every time. I felt like an attraction with all the students staring at me. I got on a good regiment of medication. Problems with them was getting in contact was incredibly difficult, they do not have an on call team or anything it was just a clinic and that was the only way to see the oral-facial pain specialist.

I did lab work in my last job. I dropped so much glassware, I don’t know how. I fell with a box of test tubes with a jolt of pain. I fell asleep three times and that lab director understood but I was no good in this condition. He asked me to come back when I felt better. I wish.

The GPN was recently diagnosed but I have has symptoms for two years until they figured it out. I figured it out first but they said I was in the wrong age group and I was the wrong gender. I am getting the GPN shots every two months now and have a hoarse voice that comes and goes.

I don’t wish for anyone to feel this pain, I have felt it since I was in my teens. Earlier even but everyone said it was growth pains I would feel cause of the cleft lip and palate. I also have implant in my face I got as after hs graduation under by nose above my front teeth because the bone wasn’t growing and so my face kinda sloped off to he left.

I am not trying to be hard. I am sorry if I sound defensive. I feel like I am defending myself. I have not been suicidal just feel a kinda sad that this is my life. It sucks to have gotten so super ready for adulthood and fail. All because no one knew the signs or maybe I didn’t express myself well enough. I have sucked up so much pain and went forward regardless. Until I couldn’t anymore.

I also know that non of us can really compare just really sympathize. We don’t all have the same 10. I know that my 10 is when I can’t remember. I can’t communicate, throw up, get super anxious start sweating, than my dad knows what to do. I sleep a lot of not enough. I went through a period of pain and didn’t sleep for 24 hours. This was when I lived alone. I also slept through a fire alarm, thank goodness by than I had the good sense to get a room mate. Her BF was staying over that night and they both were able to wake me up and help me out of bed. I don’t remember the rest but apparently we made it downstairs and they sat me down and I just kept sleeping. I woke up when I was walking up the stairs.

Sorry guys again. I didn’t mean to get winded and all over the place. I have to take meds right now and things are starting to look blurry.

  • Maddy